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The Titanium Vault hosted by RJ Bates III
Jay Conner: Private Money Expert
November 23, 2018 Jay Conner
The Titanium Vault hosted by RJ Bates III

Jay Conner: Private Money Expert

November 23, 2018

Jay Conner

Jay Conner has been buying and selling houses for 14 years and has been involved in over 52 Million dollars in transactions. For the past 7 years, Jay has completely automated his 7-Figure Income Business to where he works in his business less than 10 hours per week. He is a leading expert on Private Lending, once raising over $2M in less than 90 Days in private money while cut off from the banks. He is a contributing author to the best-selling book Real Estate: Getting Deals Done In The New Economy. In this interview, Jay and RJ discuss the process of raising private capital, how to close deals using private money and the documents needed. To learn more about Jay's education program please visit:

Jay Conner has been buying and selling houses for 14 years and has been involved in over 52 Million dollars in transactions. For the past 7 years, Jay has completely automated his 7-Figure Income Business to where he works in his business less than 10 hours per week. He is a leading expert on Private Lending, once raising over $2M in less than 90 Days in private money while cut off from the banks. He is a contributing author to the best-selling book Real Estate: Getting Deals Done In The New Economy. In this interview, Jay and RJ discuss the process of raising private capital, how to close deals using private money and the documents needed. To learn more about Jay's education program please visit:

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1:0:01Well, it's not real estate investors, entrepreneurs and agents and long white place unlocking the secrets to real estate investing and entrepreneurship. Welcome there. That titanium vaults posted by RJ Bates for third. Here's RJ.

Speaker 2:0:25Hello and welcome to the titanium vault. I am your host Rj Bates. Today I'm sitting down with Jay Conner. Jay, how are you doing today?

Speaker 3:0:33I'm doing fantastic, RJ. How's it out better in Texas?

Speaker 2:0:38Oh Man. Just A, a beautiful, I guess we call this fall, but it feels like winter. I guess. It's a beautiful fall day here. I'm enjoying some, uh, cold weather finally here in Texas, getting rid of all the mosquitoes finally.

Speaker 3:0:53Oh Man. I know what you mean. My wife Carol Joy, she's from Wichita Falls, Texas. And um, and we got our Texas quite a bit, but my lens when I lived out there in Wichita falls, Texas back in the 80s. A an old fellow told me right after I moved there and he says, Jay, the only thing we're doing, which jar files in the North Pole is a Barb wire fence. And that blew down about 50 years ago, which means when it's hot is hot and when it's cold it's cold.

Speaker 2:1:20Yeah. Yeah. That's takes his man. We get about a week and a half, a spring and a week and a half and fall. It goes from summer to winter here pretty quickly. So as the, the joys of living in Texas. So I know what you mean, man. Why don't you take a second to introduce yourself and tell the listeners what it is you do in real estate?

Speaker 3:1:41Sure. Well, um, I live here and the wife Carol Joy and I, we live here in a little small town in Morehead city, North Carolina. We lived right here on the coast, right on the Atlantic Ocean. This is where I grew up and we've been investing in single family houses. I do commercial as well. We've got a shopping center. Um, we primarily focus on single family houses and we've been investing in those, uh, for 15 years now where we live, as I said, as a very, very small town, small market. I mean Morgan City itself only has eight thousand eight thousand and plus a few people. My total target market that we invest in has got 40,000 people. So we missed it more. It's sitting in the neighboring areas around here. We don't do that many transactions, two to three transactions a month, but the average profit per deal is $64,000 per deal over the past 12 months. So our median price point or a median price point is right at 225,000. Most of the deals that we do, I've got an after repaired value, uh, between 150,000 and 250,000. And um, and I mean that, so those are the, those are the price points of the deals that we're doing.

Speaker 2:3:03Gotcha. And what kind of deals are you doing? What's the exit strategy there and they fix and flips or are you buying and holding?

Speaker 3:3:08Yeah, most of our exit strategies are a fix and flip. Uh, of course won't buy pretty houses that don't need that much work to him. W were by a number of houses. Subject two, the existing note, uh, without having to use the private money. But most of the houses that we buy do need some renovation to some degree. Uh, most of the houses we buy, we buy from motivated sellers for sale by owners. We buy some bank on properties, but in today's market it's just really hard to find a deal in the, in the mls. So most of our deals are from a for sale by owners. Uh, we've been, uh, direct mailing foreclosures prior to them going into the sale for 15 years. About 25% of our business comes from people that had been filed on foreclosure but have not gone to say, Oh yeah, but, uh, we do a little bit of buy and hold, but it's mostly either selling on a fix and flip.

Speaker 3:4:05And we also are j sell a lot of homes on rent to own or with a lease purchase. And I know things are a little, I know things that are a little different on lease purchase. They're in Texas, but, um, but anyway, you know, we require our rent to own buyers enter into our credit repair program because as, as we all know, if we leave them to their own devices, they're not going to cash out in all probability. But we, uh, hold their hands getting ready for a mortgage and about 80% of our rent to own buyers actually do cash out and ended up owning the house.

Speaker 2:4:42Nice. So do you, I know you do the rent to own, but do you ever do seller financing or owner financing yourself?

Speaker 3:4:50I do under financing, but not that much. No. I'll tell you why. What I have discovered is that most cases I can get the same amount of money and a nonrefundable option fee as I can a down payment. Of course, the nonrefundable option fee will be credited towards the closing costs and down payment when they're ready for the mortgage. Um, but here where I am, I've learned, well, why do I, I mean, I will enter finance if they've got a sizable down payment, I'll transfer the deed, but in most cases, this rental home.

Speaker 2:5:25Okay, interesting. Yeah, that's not very common here in Texas. A lot of itches owner financing, which is huge here at Texas, but it is interesting. You also brought up that you take properties down subject to the existing mortgage. For some of the listeners who don't know what that is, we have talked about it a couple of times here on the titanium vault, but for those that don't know what that means, explained that process to them.

Speaker 3:5:50Sure. Well, I've been doing the business for 15 years but I never heard of buying a house or controlling a property or owning a property by using the strategy of buying subject two the existing note until about 10 years ago. It's been around for decades. Actually, it's already on the settlement statement on the Hud settlement statement on line 204 what it means is the buyer of the property is buying the house, the title, the deed is being transferred into the buyers entity, your land trust, the LLC or what have you. And the seller of the property is agreeing for their mortgage, their current mortgage to stay in their name and the buy or the property is agreeing to make the mortgage payments. Now, that's not the same as an assumption, right? The buyer of the property is not assuming the loan and the words of the loan is not being, or the mortgage is not being transferred into the buyer's name. The buyer just simply agreeing to make the payments. And of course the question comes up when I first heard of it, I said, who in the world in their right mind would sell me a property and count on me to make their payments and keep them current, uh, and, and give me, I mean, you know, transfer ownership and leave the mortgage in their name. And of course I found out quickly the answer to that question is a motivated seller who is looking for debt relief,

Speaker 2:7:22right? I mean there's tons of people out there in situations where as, especially if you're targeting pre foreclosures, like you said, you're, you're direct mailing, pre foreclosures, um, you know, you come across people that, you know, as soon as you meet them there, their need, their pain point is if I could just be out from underneath this payment, you know, I'm so far behind, there's nowhere to, to for me to catch up. And that's a lot of times where subject two is a great strategy is, you know, say your $10,000 behind on payments and you've got the, you know, the penalties and all these fees that have accumulated, you know, as the investor, you could go in and say, hey look, I'll catch you up, but I want to take the property down the subject to. Um, and that's a great strategy in those circumstances when you take down a property subject to, and this has kind of been a, a heated point here on, on the guests that I've had talk about subject tos. Do you give them, do you give the seller a certain timeframe where you tell them you will sell it or refinance it out of their name or do you just say it could go all the way up until the end of the term of your note?

Speaker 3:8:36Yes. Ordinarily I don't give them a time frame and less the seller is requiring a timeframe. So, um, I think of a particular example. It was I want to say earlier this year, um, about a property subject to, and they could not go buy another house, cannot afford it at the house until, I mean they wouldn't be able to get a loan for another house until this mortgage was paid off since it is going to stay in their name. And since they wanted to buy another house, what we agreed is that I would either cash them out with having a new buyer, you know, by the house. And pay their mortgage off and you know, a meal, uh, within 12 months. And if I didn't have a buyer that would do that, then I agreed to refinance the house within 12 months. And of course, the way I would refinance it if I needed to do that would be with private money because I always have private money funding on the shelf ready to go and don't have to rely on the local bank or a mortgage company to do, to do that.

Speaker 3:9:44As it turned out, I was able to renovate the house and a 30 days or less and put it on the market and cash out. I did the whole thing and uh, from start to finish in less than four months on cash out. Right. But that's sort of the out of the ordinary. Um, most people that are, that have got a house that are selling on subject too. Not all of them, but a lot of them are behind on payments and they can't go get another, uh, you know, mortgage or buying a house because of their credit. But in the exception case that I just shared with you, those people were current, totally current on their payments, had never been behind, and they just wanted to sell quickly without having to wait on, you know, having to go through white noise on the realtor or realty community, you know, to, to get it sold for him.

Speaker 2:10:35Well, you've brought up private money a couple of times in this, and I know you're an expert on private lending. Um, once you raised over $2 million in less than 90 days and private money while you, you didn't have access to funds from the banks. So what are some of the advantages of using private money over the other types of funding?

Speaker 3:10:56Oh, my hands. Well, there's a lot more advantages than actually using traditional banks. Um, I mean, yeah, the first five years, first five, six years that I was in the business, I relied on the local banks and lines of credit. And I tell you, I can remember it, RJ, just like it was yesterday. Uh, this goes back homeless 10 years ago, if I had to be 10 years ago this coming. Uh, and just like 90 days from now, I called him a banker and, uh, I told him I had two deals under contract that I wanted to close within 30 days. And I had had this conversation, or Jay, my lands for years with the same banker, uh, you know, telling him where it's located and, you know, we don't want to close and you know, the man needed for funding. And he went quiet on me, which of course is never a good sign.

Speaker 3:11:47And they cleared this, he cleared his throat. He says, Jay, I'm sorry, but the bank has collapsed your line of credit. And I said, well, what in the world? And um, so, you know, my, I had perfect credit, uh, never laid on a, on a, on a, you know, a payment with this bank. And so I hung up the phone and I called him up and his name's Jeff. I told him what happened. I said, Jeff, what am I going to do? He said, well, welcome to the club. They just cut me off too. And, um, so you all, you know, Rj, I know that you recall, and I know most of your listeners were recall what was going on in 2008 2009 and I mean, it was like a spicket, you know, it's like cut off over night. And so my definition of coincidence is God's way of staying anonymous.

Speaker 3:12:41And in less than two weeks of that conversation with my banker, I was introduced to this wonderful world of private money and private money is doing business with individuals. So we're not talking, doing money, doing lunch with hard money lenders or institutions or mortgage companies that's doing business with individuals. And so, uh, I think your question was the advantages. Well, there's two primary, there's three primary categories of where we get the private money. The first category is your own circle of influence or what I call your warm market people. You've already got some kind of relationship with either through, you know, business colleagues or family, friends, church, social networks, etc. Uh, the next category is what I call him new warm market. You know, these are local warm markets in your area that you may not know the people yet such as getting involved in the Rotary Club or the Chamber of commerce or any other, you know, social networks.

Speaker 3:13:49And the third category is existing private lenders. Well, the advantage of doing private money deals with the warm market is first of all, we make the rules. Oh my lands. I mean when I was borrowing money from the banks, they made the rules, they decided, you know, they decided what the interest rate was and how often you made payments and what the loan to value was and et cetera. Well, when I first learned about private money and doing business with your warm market, I, it was 180 degree mind shift. So what I did was I put together my own private lending program that I offer to people and put the word out. So I set the interest rate, I set how often the monthly payment is. And another big thing is a lot of, uh, our private lenders loan us money and fund our deals from their retirement funds by using self directed Iras.

Speaker 3:14:51Got 47 private lenders right now funding our deals. Now of course your listeners don't leave 47 private lender to start with one or two, right? But over half of those private lenders that we do business with use their retirement funds. So it's really, really important for someone that's wanting to borrow private money to establish a relationship with a self directed Ira Company and representative that you can refer your new private lenders to do where they can, you know, transfer their funds over and get unlimited returns per a year, tax free and penalty free. But anyway, back to the advantages we sent, the rules we set, how often the payments are made. Um, we can close very, very quickly. Or J I mean all of our offers we tell people I was sellers, we can close in seven days, seven days. Um, of course one where that works is if you've got a good relationship with your closing agent, real estate attorney, title company.

Speaker 3:15:53Uh, so they can move quickly so I can get more deals excepted RJ or offers accepted because I can close so quickly. Another big advantage is there's no limit to the number of private lenders we can do business with. I had a limit to my line of credit at the bank. Right? There's no limit. We can borrow across state lines because we're not regulated by the, the uh, commissioner of banks. It's got nothing to do with our credit score. Um, I mean, you know, it has nothing. I mean, cause the private money's a collateral loan. I mean, somebody can have a mid score of 425 and it just doesn't matter because it's a collateral loan. And so it just, it just freezes up and get to so much more flexibility to do just a really an unlimited number of deals. So that sounds great. But why would a private money lender be interested in lending money to us as investors?

Speaker 3:16:51Sure. Well, there's three really big reasons. The first reason is first of all, they're going to earn a whole lot more money and they can probably earn through any other resources. Um, so let's start with that one. I paid most of my private lenders 8% 8% if you compare that to hard money, your hard money lender is going to charge on average now 14% and then there's going to be, you know, uh, four points in the origination fees. By the way, that's another thing. There's no place in costs. I mean, there's no points. There's no origination fees with a private money. So, you know, USA Today, our J as you probably know, every Thursday, every Thursday, USA Today, couple of them publishes in the money section what the average certificate of deposit is paying per year right now. I mean, get per year, per 12 months. This past Thursday is 0.88% 0.88% lip.

Speaker 3:17:49You can get downright aggressive and tying your money up for five years in a certificate of deposit and get 1.65%. So people out there, I've got cash, there's $18 trillion right now available in the United States of cash sitting on the sidelines and people just don't know what to do with it. So we've got to help them solve their problem. So number one, they get really, really high rates of return, then they can get anywhere else. Secondly, uh, their loan is safe and secure and here's why it is safe because the maximum loan to value we borrowed is 75% of the after repaired value. I didn't say 75% of the purchase price, 75% of the after repaired value. That's another big reason I left private money. I always get a big check when I buy cause I always borrow more than I need to buy. Okay. It's secure because I don't borrow any unsecured funds.

Speaker 3:18:48I give all the private lenders a mortgage, you know, some states like North Carolina as a deed of trust. And then thirdly, the reason the private mentors absolutely love this program is because they're loving amount or their principle loan amount is not volatile, meaning the principal does not go up and down like the stock market. You know, you invest in the stock market, you already lost money because you have fees and commissions. I tell people in my program there are no fees or aren't in commissions and there's nothing that comes out of your investment. There's nothing that comes out of your principal and the mountain. So their principle amount remains the same until cash out. So they know exactly what that reliable rate of return is going to be. So you know, my older private lenders love that. I mean my older private lenders, they don't have time for another correction in the stock market. So they love knowing that, okay, here's my principal amount, I know exactly what that's going to earn that all that's all that's going to cash out when the house sells and then we'll just go do another deal.

Speaker 2:19:57What are some of the best tips that you give to investors to kind of get the word out to potential private money lenders that you enter your, you are offering these high rates of return that are secured by real estate?

Speaker 3:20:08Yeah. Well, I'm glad you asked that question because I raised over $2 million in my first 90 days, uh, attracting private money. And you know, what are Jay? I've never asked anybody for money. I've never asked a private lender for money. All I'm doing is putting my program out there too. A lot of people very quickly and I still do that. And then they raised their hand that they're interested in because as you know, it's a whole lot easier to attract than it is to chase. Right? So wait, chasing nobody. We're not trying to talk anybody into anything. We're not selling anybody or in your brain what does making it available. So one idea and I still utilize today or j is when I started out, I recorded a 16 minute, um, all audio recording called stress free investing, how to print money automatically. And this all audio or RJ gives an overview of what private money is all about and what private money is.

Speaker 3:21:14But the audio does not spill the beans on my program. Okay. The audio does not tell the interest rate or how they can get their money back in less than 90 days in case of an emergency or what happens if I die? You know, how are they protected? But all those questions are raised and the audio. So the purpose of that audio is to swell up the potential private lenders greed glands do where they can't wait to hear the actual program. So this 16 minute audio stress free investing, I have personalize this recording, uh, over a thousand times for my students across the nation. So, um, you know, if you've got to be followers that, you know, wanting to learn how they can get that transcript or whatever, get it recorded, uh, we can let them know when we get to the end of the show here.

Speaker 3:22:12But that's one way. Getting the audio out. I've also, I also do private lender luncheons and a private lender luncheon is simply inviting people to a luncheon. And I've got a step by step process on how to have a successful private lender luncheon. But I've raised as much as $969,000 at one private lender luncheon. So at that luncheon, you know, I'll, uh, I'll have maybe 10 potential private lenders right here in my local area and my students do it right there wherever they live. Having at a nice place, you know, the nicest place you can go forward and you feed them lunch so you're buying them lunch. And then there's a simple little 15, 20 minute PowerPoint presentation that I provide that you go through and present the information on what private money is and how the program looks. And at the end of the luncheon, they just spent on little questionnaires to whether they'd like more information or not.

Speaker 3:23:10So private lender luncheons or a very quick way to, um, raise a lot of private money. Another thing that I do and my students do is they'll go out to, or we'll go out to the civic clubs, like the rotary clubs are always looking for presenters at their lunch meetings. And so we have another PowerPoint presentation where we'll give information on what private money is and etc. And a handout, the audio recording. So it's all about networking. You know, it's all about networking. So you know, we hear about private money lending all the time in real estate investing.

Speaker 2:23:46You go to meetups, you go to networking events and everybody talks about it. But you know, if you've never done it before, they can be a little bit of a daunting task if you don't have a mentor or someone to walk you through the process. So real quickly, how do you actually close or fun to deal with a private lender? And what documents do you need to make this happen?

Speaker 3:24:08Good question. That's another reason our Jag that I absolutely love private money is it because the closing is so simple. So here's the only documentation. I mean, you know, when we close on a traditional mortgage or even getting a, you know, even getting a loan from the bank to do a deal, my lands, I mean the paperwork is like an inch thick. Here's the documents. First Augmentation is the primary documents, the promissory note. So the promissory note is only a page long page and a half long, you know, it lays out who's the borrower, who's the lender must the property collateralizing the loan must the principle line of mouth. What's the interest rate, how often the payments, what are the payments, what's the length of the mode or the term, you know, and so you got a promissory note. Uh, second document is the mortgage or be the trust, which is the document that gives the lender the legal right to foreclose in case the borrower is in default and does a pay.

Speaker 3:25:10Then there is the insurance, the insurance binder. And so private lenders are named as Morgan gs on the, um, on the insurance policy rather. And Mortgage Geezer, private lenders, God forbid the house burns down, the lender gets paid before anybody else does. And then there's the title policy. The lender's name is the additional insured on the title policy. Um, and this, these documents are j, uh, for the sake of your listeners. The great news is, is we as the borrower and the real estate investor, we don't prepare these documents. The real estate attorney prepares the documents. And here's what's really cool. Um, I've got this simple little one page template, email Scott, 12 little points and it's filling the line. Who's the vendor? Who's the bar or lost the principal going amount? What's the interest rate? And by the way, we only make interest only payments, but you don't, we don't make principal and interest because the private of inner makes more money that way because they're not paying, we're not paying their principal down and it helps our cashflow as the borrower.

Speaker 3:26:22But this simple little template, you fill it out, it takes every bit, maybe two minutes to fill it out, email it to your closing agent, and it gives them all the information that they need to prepare the, uh, the closing documents. So, I mean, you know, even when I go to a closing, I, you know, I went to a closing today at the attorney's, I don't have to go mommy ans I'm giving my real estate attorney power of attorney. They can buy any house selling the house for me and I want them to, I just give him, you know, approval by email. But Hey, I'm in town today and I'm going downtown anyway. I'm there for less than two minutes to sign the documents. Uh, so it's, it, it's not me, the documents at all. It's simple. It's quick, it's easy

Speaker 2:27:06documentation to close. And a couple of points here, you know, Jay's giving his, his feedback on how he borrows his money. Uh, just a couple of things while I was listening to you, which it's all brilliant information. There are a couple of differences between how I borrow money and now he borrows money. Um, I don't make interest only payments. I do all of the interest accrues and is paid at the end when we either sell or refinance the property. Now I do that to enable us to do more. And, but so we can not have the burden of cashflow issues with having to pay, make those interest only payments, um, during the length of the project. Um, now that being said, I also borrow from very what Jay refers to as warm, private money investors. I would never do that to someone that I just met at a, at a luncheon and say, Hey, you know, loaned me $200,000 in, trust me for the next six months while I don't make any payments. Um, these are people that I've known for quite some time, are either partners with me on other projects and that's why I've been enabled to do where the interest accrues and it's all paid at the end. Um, is that something that you've ever done, Jay, where you've had the interest accrue and, and it's all paid at the end?

Speaker 3:28:28Oh, sure. And I've got a number of friends that do that as well with a real place, more and market. Um, and I guess in the majority of the cases, the reason I don't do it is because I have, since I sell a number of houses on the rent to own, I'm not interested in having an accrual of interest for 18 months when they're ready for cash. I don't, I want to get it paid up a little bit along the way, but the way you do it and the way I do it to all of that works.

Speaker 2:28:58Yup. So let's talk about, I, it sounds like you've got a book and some programs out there. Why don't you, you know, kind of tell everybody a little bit about your programs and where they can find out more information about those.

Speaker 3:29:10Oh, sure. Absolutely. Um, I tell you what, let me get out a couple of free resources. A Rj. Yeah. Um, so one is, um, I've got an a, I do live events, so I've got two free tickets for your listeners. Um, and these are valued at $3,000. Um, and my live event, I'm going to even give the website now. So it's, uh, Debbie, Debbie, Debbie at. Dot. Jay's live, All spelled out. J A y. S. Yeah, no, I'm, I'm, I'm telling you. I tell you I got something better than that. Let's, let's give out the titanium vault one. Let's give him www and your show notes there. Uh, our agendas are wivw dot Jay Conner, j a y c o n n e, forward slash titanium vault [inaudible] website. So Jay Conner and I'm an er, not o, r a, j a y c o n e n e, forward slash titanium vault.

Speaker 3:30:20And that URL will take people to mount to the website to where they can get free tickets to my live event. I do the live event three and four times a year. This lines of, it's very different from other real estate investing on events. I actually have private lenders come to the event for real estate investors to network with, come to the event, get private money. Um, but I teach all four pillars of my business. There's four pillars I teach at the business. Number one, how we find deals before other real estate investors know they exist. Number two, how we fund the deals. Uh, that's got nothing to do with your money. I mean nothing to do with your credit or your own money or your verification of income or your experience. Thirdly, how you sell houses quickly in three days or less. And then fourthly, how we automate the business.

Speaker 3:31:13We also have a bus tour on during the event. And this is a different bus tour. Rj, we're done. We don't go look at houses in the multiple listing service. We actually had to look at houses that I'm doing. I show how I found the houses, um, for those that are being rehabbed, you know, we may look at houses that are underway looking, look at houses that are completely finished and staged and also the attendees get to meet my team as to how I automate this business, my contractors, my interior designer, my virtual assistance and how we're able to automate the entire business. So they get the free tickets four slash titanium vault. And also if people just want to reach out to us and you know, talking about getting the, um, the audio recording and the script for that and et Cetera. Uh, just give us a call here at our office at two five, 280-EIGHT-TWO-9272 528-ZERO-EIGHT-2927, uh, here in North Carolina eastern time. Then of course, just going to Jake you can poke around and find all kinds of information and resources.

Speaker 2:32:22Well Jay, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us day and that was some great tips on private money in and I learned quite a bit and, and I consider myself pretty good at it cause you know, we, we do quite a bit of business across the country and almost all of his base around private money. But you really simplified it and broke that down to where it's a system, you know, and, and sometimes we're private money. It doesn't feel like it can be a system, but you really broke it down and kind of created that. And thank you for taking the time to share all that information and giving away those free gifts to our listeners today. Absolutely. Rj, I'm so glad to share and a man, Rj, I've got my podcast, so I need to have you on my show. Well, we'll have to get that. Uh, we'll have to get that scheduled and uh, but again, thank you for taking the time and uh, we will talk to you soon. All right, thanks so much RJ and uh, we'll talk to you soon. Take care. Bye. Bye.

Speaker 1:33:19Thanks so much for listening to the titanium vault with your host, Rj Bates. The third for more info on to stay up to date, visit titanium vault. If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review and we'll catch you next time on the timetable.

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